Is the high-bar squat underrated?
22 Apr 2010These days it seems all the rage to squat “low bar”, which also implies a wide stance (slightly to significantly wider than the shoulders) and more focus on the hips & posterior chain as opposed to the quads.
There’s an argument to be made for this, of course, in that it’s probably going to be a stronger position, making better use of bigger, stronger muscle groups. For most people, this may be a good way to go about it.
In powerlifting, the low-bar style is more the rule than the exception, especially in the current era of gear-fetishism. Even IPF-affiliates with single-ply gear tend to make use of the low-bar variety, although they tend to be far less exaggerated about it than their multi-ply cousins. I’m not going to bag on multi-ply feds and lifters, but it’s pretty clear that the squatting in those feds is a whole different animal from a raw (unequipped or belt+wraps only) squat.
But what about the low-bar squat’s shunned cousin, the high-bar (or Olympic-style) squat? I got to thinking about this earlier as I’ve been in a spiral of training ADD about my own lifting, and I recalled something from a few years ago.
At the time, I’d yet to pull over 500 lbs. I think my best ever was something like 475 or so. I went on what we’d now call the Texas Method or the “Bill Starr intermediate” routine: 5 sets of 5 on Monday, one heavy set of 5 on Friday. I don’t have my old journal sitting right here in front of me, but I recall pretty clearly that Wednesday was given over to DLs, and at that point I didn’t do much but 2-3 heavier sets and something not unlike speed pulls (lots of singles with a moderate percentage).
This program was squat heavy and very minimal on the DLs. Importantly, and relevant to the topic, the squatting I did was high-bar, full-depth Olympic style. In fact, here’s a video taken from around that timeframe:
As you can see, the bar’s pretty high up on my traps, my stance is pretty narrow, and I sink it right down to the floor. That’s the kind of squat I’m talking about.
Now to continue the story, I did squats like that, in the 5×5 program, for about six weeks. I really have no idea what kind of weights I was hitting, although I do recall hitting 365×5 at one point (and switching to triples after that). Now here’s the thing – I took an easy week to test my deadlift, and figured I’d give 500 a try. Based on how pulling had felt in prior weeks, I didn’t expect to get more than one rep. I ended up pulling 500×5.
After that, I was sold on the idea of squatting to help the pull. Fast-forward a few years later, and I seem to have forgotten to listen to my own wisdom. What prompted me to write this is my on-going battle to pull 600 lbs by the end of the year, and the fact that my squatting has been severely hampered lately due to two unfortunate injuries that I’d rather not repeat.
I’ve been focusing on the low-bar style of squatting almost exclusively the past few years, and I can say without hesitation that it’s a pure matter of ego. It’s much harder to squat high-bar, though in the end I really have to wonder if it’s not more productive.
Besides my own experience, I’ve found other wisdom to back up my reasoning. Glenn Pendlay, always a great source of lifting-wisdom, has this to say:
1) There is the assumption that high bar squats, done very deep, do not work the posterior chain. I would propose that they do, and the difference between high bar and low bar and the posterior chain is not as large as some would assume it is.
When I converted from PL to OL, I converted from low bar, powerlifting type squats (medium stance) to closer stance high bar squats with a fairly upright torso, although I dont think my torso was ever as upright as some coaches would prefer. I remember my lower back and glutes being very sore over the first couple of workouts, these workouts were with weights around 365lbs to 405lbs. For comparison, my last heavy low bar back squat set done before this was 730lbs for a set of 3, to be fair this was with suit and wraps. I still remember that set, done in the left hand squat rack in the back of Rip’s old gym, because it was supposed to be a set of 5, and I lost my balance and dumped it on the pins on the 4th rep.
My observations at the time were that the longer lever arm created by putting the bar higher on the back was overriding the decreased angle of the back, and making it even harder for my lumbar muscles to maintan a tight back and for my hip extensors to extend the hip. I am not trying to say that HB squats work the posterior chain more than LB squats, I do not personally believe this, I am just making the point that the differences are not as clear cut as some are making them.
2) As I see it, the heart of this argument is really about the carry-over of LB and HB squats to other things, specifically OL. Here are a few general observations about carry-over.
When I was a good LB squatter, that strength did not carry over well to HB or front squats, as evidenced by some of the numbers above. When later in my lifting career, I became a decent HB squatter, it directly and immedietly carried over to being able to do very respectable numbers in the LB squat. My front squat of 550lbX5reps and HB back squat of 606lbsX10 reps, both done without a belt, these sets done about a month apart, allowed me to do several very, very respectable LB squats, and LB box squats with no practice or training on either the LB squat or the LB box squat. My feeling was that strength gained from HB squatting was just more “transferable” to other things than strength gained from LB squatting. Through many conversations with others, and a fair bit of experience coaching ex-powerlifters in the Olympic lifts, I have found that this seems to be quite universal. HB, Olympic style squatting will make you strong at the LB squat, LB squatting with a more bent over stance and less depth will NOT carry over well to the HB, Olympic style squat. I think the carry over from one to another bears considering, because what what we are really talking about here is the carry over from one type of squat or another to a completely different exercise.
Fred Hatfield, AKA “Dr. Squat” who is a respected authority on strength training, has written a couple of very good books on the subject, and who competed at a fairly high level in both gymnastics and OL before achieving a 1008lb squat at 44 years of age and I believe around 255lbs, has argued extensively that not only should the HB squat be used EXCLUSIVELY for the training of athletes, but its qualities of carry over are such that even POWERLIFTERS who are actually competing with a low bar, bent over, only to parallel and sometimes wide stance squat, should in fact do HB, Olympic style squats for much of the off season. In a rough quote of his words, HB squats build strength, LB squats demonstrate it.
Note his points about overall carryover; it would seem his experience agrees with my own – getting strong on the Olympic/high-bar squat will add more to the PL-style squat than the opposite case, and if you’re a conventional puller, it’ll probably help that too (as in my anecdote).
I like to note things like this, because it’s important from a training economy point of view. This is a case where spending some time bumping the high-bar squat will probably transfer over to just about everything else – front squat, low-bar squat, and yes, even my beloved deadlift.
I’d also like to point out that there is a compromise here. You can still do a low-bar style with a closer stance and a lot of depth. I used to call these “IPF squats” for no real reason except that I could. Here’s an example:
Ignore my hip-tucking, that’s an old issue I had and something you should ideally avoid. What I want you to see is that I’ve still got a close stance and still get pretty damn deep; the difference is where the bar sits on my traps.
Glenn says roughly the same thing:
I also think the HB vs LB controversy has less meaning than has been assigned to it… for example, one certainly can squat with the bar in a low position and still do a pretty upright, deep squat, that as far as body position would satisfy any Olympic lifting coach. One can also do a HB squat and get quite bent over, I have personally proven that many times! Simply changing the position of the bar on the back doesnt magically change a good exercise to a bad one, or vice versa.
I like this part too:
I am not so sure that I agree with Fred Hatfields view that HB, Olympic style squats are so superior and have such a superior strength transfer to other activities that not only all athletes should be doing it that way, but even competitive powerlifters who compete with a low bar squat should do much of their training with the HB squat. I am inclined to think in this direction, but it is certainly not as clear cut an issue as the one pertaining to OLers. Fred’s accomplishments and achievements do lend some credibility to his views though.
(The original post can be found here: http://www.board.crossfit.com/showpost.php?p=404418&postcount=93)
So in short, I really have to wonder if all this “powerlifting” I’ve been doing lately is for the worst – most of my squatting has looked more like that second video, low-bar position but still relatively narrow stance and still going pretty deep (minus the hip-tuck, I’ve gotten over that these days thanks to a lot more mobility work).
I think giving the high-bar Oly stuff a shot may be worthwhile.
Hey, you forgot something
"Note his points about overall carryover; it would seem his experience agrees with my own – getting strong on the Olympic/high-bar squat will", just above the second vid.
Anyways nice, you should get back to posting articles they are all really high quality and good luck on the dead goal!
Got it, thanks.
Hey Matt,
I don't really see a difference in bar positions on vid 1 and vid 2. They both seem to be on the rear delts, and the distance of the top of the shirt to the top of the bar seem to be the same. Maybe its an angle thing?
As per the article, I found a link talking about quad activation:
http://powerandbulk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=46…
In the thread PC talks about how some studies of squats, where by muscular activation is measure by EMG readings. Apparently, quads are king (large percentage of muscular activity relative to hams and glutes), hamstring usage remains the same at all depths, and glute usage increases in relation to depth. The depth dimension seems like trademark characteristic of the high bar squat. Looks like hamstrings are don't really change in terms of contribution according to depth – which sounds odd to me, given Rip's explanation and my own experience with low-bar.
Nevertheless perhaps high-bar IS the way to go for squat style, or at least a great supplementary exercise.
Sorry leaving three comments in a row here. But it occurred to me to ask how grip was a factor for your increase at 500×5. Was there grip training work alongside the high bar squatting that would have helped the 500×5 set?
Awesome blog Matt! Always love your work!!!
Nice article Matt! I actually just started trying low bar squats this week and didn't like them. I did find I was much faster though compared to high bar.
Excellent work as always Matt, your blog (and pretty much every post/article you write) is a great source of information.
I'll think about throwing in some more HB squats.
Will require that I'll take an ego pill though…
Matt,
How might one stop the hip tucking? I suffer with this at the moment and want to resolve it as I think it's partly to blame for SIJ issues I've had recently with my lower back.
Nice stuff as per usual.
Stretch the hamstrings, roll & stretch the piriformis and glutes. Might not hurt to stretch the hip flexors too.
Thanks for the advice on that hip tuck, Matt, and for all the research you do for the blog.
Nice work!!
I have a meet coming up in a few weeks and after that I am going to pull my squat up and see how it transfers to my deadlift (high bar, full squat). In the past it has worked.
Keep us updated on how the quest for 600 DL goes and what we can do to help! You will do it
rock on
Mike T Nelson PhD(c)
Thank you Matt, great info. I started high-bar squatting again recently, and resultantly, i've gotten stronger off of the floor. I've been doing deficit deads with a moderate load and good mornings from chains as well to improve lockout and starting strength respectively. So far the results have been quite good. HB squats performed in the manner generally implied, may be the wiser choice. HB squats make me feel more athletic that LB squats, which is endearing, to say the least.
If you're going to load the spine in the comprimised position the back squat demands, sooner or later you ask yourself,'Is there any way i can make this easier and use more weight'? Back position changes and hip position, head/neck/eye position, stance, optimizing the SSC, active negatives, relaxation, tension, bar postion, mobility, connective tissue efficiency. There's alot to consider. Presenting these arguments is a look-to-the-bigger-picture rationale. It's my interpretation that the blogger is asking us to learn from others, learn from our own training experience, relax, and see there's no one way in the eye's of a kick-ass squatter. Very wise. Thank you for presenting your insights so generously and honestly.
High bar squats aren't as challenging to the low back as for lifters without great dorsi-flexion ROM and hip flexor function. If the ilio-psoas disengages either bilaterally or uni-laterally while setting yourself up for the concentric portion, your low-back stability faulters, you slip out of groove and you are done. Maybe not with sub-max loads, but with a PR load attempt, that'd be a disgusting sight. That why it's important to practice with relatively heavy loads. They make you cognisant of your weaknesses in a way intangible with lighter loads. I'd speculate that their hip extensors are getting equally pummelled as in a LB squat, but with less stress on the hips. The HB back squat is only useful if you're able to perform it efficiently. Crap form on the HB squat won't mean sqaut. Now, you often see lifters perform a rapid dip a that hamstrings parallel level to take advantage of the SSC and they get care less, allowing the pelvis to tuck violently. This isn't necessary. This be high-time to take advantage of reciprical inhibition. Instead of thinking about dipping in and of itself, relax the upper body, without relaxing it, arch to back by contracting BILATERALLY the Ilio-psoas (remember the attachment sites of the psoas). Let the body dip, but make sure the hamstrings lengthen when you do and the back stays neutral. This will put them at a disadvantage initially,because they'll be longer but in the process lumber spine stability is ensured. I've noticed that when this is done the quads (knee extensors) get put into that drive position. You'll see a driving away of the floor and the maintenance of back position. I see it as getting yourself into the best position to get the most out of everthing at all times. As soon as the knees begin to extend there will a concomitant reistance applied to the bar without actually trying to extend the hip. So the knees extend and the back maintains an isometric contraction. Not trying to move the bar. Just trying to resist the bar changing the positon of hip flexion and lumber lordosis. Once the knees are almost straight then you can extend simultaneous drive the head back into the traps and drive the hips the through. Next time someone does a low bar squat with a wide stance, think to yourself, Is that really a sqaut or an exercise in egoism.
Dave reading over your description of good form for a high bar squat is enlightening. I also have observed myself trying to dive down to compensate for not being able to keep a tight lower back, and take advantage of the stretch shortening cycle. I'm training to remove hip anomalies from my high-bar squatting.
I'm not sure how your final sentence connects with what you mentioned above. It sounds like you're admonishing people who low bar squat (the feet tend to be a bit wider), but what's too wide a foot placement? And is the admonishment directed to foot placement or rather the effect which is a higher likelihood of squatting above parallel? Rest assured you can squat below parallel with a low bar stance, assuming the placement of your feet allows you to, which can be individual. Usually the placement that allows below parallel squatting is about shoulder width or an inch wider. Sounds like you endorse high-bar squatting (which is fine, sounds like strength transfer may indeed be its strong point), but then forsake a way of squatting that's still legitimate and allows you to lift more weight and strengthen the lower back? I think both forms of squatting have merit and admonishment of low bar while endorsing high bar(legitimacy of exercise – really that's what it is) brings in an issue that's out of scope for learning to lift heavy weights.
Over-emphasizing hips back, spreading the floor,minimizing forward projection of the knees to reduce dorsi-flexion, more weight maybe, but unnatural. Mariusz Pudzianowski is a good example of what a squat should look like. Heavy loads are second to sound form. He might be able to use even more weight if he were to adopt a wider stance, and do the aforementioned stuff, but it'd kinda silly. It'd kill the athletic beauty of his squat. You know the guy who's using every measure to squat more from the guy who simply wants to be a good squat. One will squat and the other will not. If you squat low bar, feet-wide and you look like mariusz, then thats awesome.
I do close stance ssb free squats very upright with a heeled shoe. Great carry over to my con dead and low bar med stance raw squat. I have pulled 655 at 225btw I use them 1 day a week at around 80-85% for 3-5 reps no belt.I do low bar med stance low box squats the other day at 90% for singles.Using the ssb really works the upper back also ehich alot of people could use. Great stuff.
Dave, I think you're associating the commonly referred to 'powerlifting form' to what most people have learnt as the low bar squat. Low bar squatting is usually done heels about shoulder width (if not a hair touch wider) apart. And in training for long-term strength increases, I don't think anyone usually puts form second to intensity. Most people (if youtube comments, and my own anecdotal observations of other ppl training are any indication) HATE screwing up form to just lift heavier. I'm unclear if by look like Mariusz you mean look huge or you're talking about his squat form (never seen it – guess I gotta go youtube hunting).
Jon, About the SSB, is that at all similar to high bar or front squatting? I keep hearing the SSB is almost 'front squattish', but the placement is clearly behind the person, although a bit higher off the shoulders.
I feel the ssb used the way I use it is as close to a HB squat as I can get.The bar is way higher up the back so there is alot longer lever arm than a LB squat.I dont use handles on the yoke and I dont push it way back on my back, I let it ride high. I have very tight ankles so the combo of the heeled shoe and ssb work grest. Shoulders dont get as beat up also. Alot more quad work but still alot of ham,glute,low back. I go 2-3 in below parallel