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A post I made on the P&B, speculating about adjusting the 531 training max on a workout by workout basis.

Quote:I saw that Chad Smith, of Juggernaut Training Systems, over on EliteFTS has a template similar to the 531 that he's working with. He alters his max after each AMRAP set. For every rep over his target reps (on the AMRAP), he adds 2.5# to his max for the next week. This is a fairly common adjustment in autoregged programs (see Supertraining by Siff&Verkhoshansky and also Tsatsouline's Beyond Bodybuilding) This might be the missing piece that many people who have issues with the 531 programming need (whether philosophically or whom just have need of a more dynamic program)

Example:

This week your floating 1RM is 400#
It's your 5's day. 65x5, 75x5, 85xAMRAP
Actual numbers: 260x5, 300x5, 340x12

You're +7 reps. Next week you add 17.5# to your 3s day working max.

3s day numbers:
295x3, 335x3, 380x5

You're +2 reps. Next week you add 5# to your 5/3/1 day working max.

531 Week numbers:
325x5, 365x3, 410x1

I would also go the other direction. If you cannot get your target reps on that last set, you deduct 2.5# from the weight for each rep you miss.

Eventually this will give you a much greater understanding of how these repetitions and 1RMs interact, and should keep you closer to the legit %s in the program, and will also control to volume in a much tighter fashion. I haven't tried this, so there is probably some shaking out that needs to happen.

Using this method will also make the deloading weeks MUCH more important early on.

The 2.5# is just arbitrary. It might work better for some if a different number was used, like +5# for every 3 reps over. Round down.

Other comments that were worthwhile and interesting:


Quote:To get even more sophisticated you could probably have different increments for each week. This is because each additional rep that you do during the 1's week is more indicative of an increased max than each additional rep is during the 5's week. I might have a 5 pound increment associated with the 1's week, but only a 2 pound increment associated with the 5's week.


Doug Young's method of adjusting his training weights:

Quote:Doug Young’s Training
by Jack Woodson (1977)


The lifting world is already well aware of Doug Young of course, since he won the National and World 242 lb. class titles the past two years. By way of a quick review, Doug was an all-state football player at Brownwood (Texas) High School where he weighed only 178 as a senior but had lightning quick reactions and great strength. He bench pressed 315-320 in high school. He started all three years at Texas Tech despite three separate injuries that required surgery, including a broken leg and two knee injuries. Doug was still small for a college lineman at 5’11” and 200-205 lbs., but he had moved his bench up to 400 by this time. Injuries and lack of size kept the pros away and in the following years he was in some rodeos. Doug moved his bench press to 540 by October of 1973, then the two National and World titles and a 2000 lb. total, which brings us to the subject for today – how Doug Young trains to peak for a big meet.


Doug likes to take 12 weeks to peak, but it could vary a little because of an injury or something but this is the basic cycle he likes to follow. The first four weeks he uses 4 sets of 6 reps in the bench press. On the 4th set he goes limit. He uses each rep as a 5-pound indicator for his next workout. He starts the cycle at 400 lbs.

Example – 400 x 6, 400 x 6, 400 x6, 400 x limit (e.g. 10)
So, from the last set, five pounds for each rep over six would work out to
(10 reps minus 6) 4 times 5 (five pound for each rep over six) equals 20 (pounds more next workout).
Example (next workout) – 420 x 6, 420 x 6, 420 x 6, 420 x 8.
Many 4-20’s!
Then, by following the same plan – 2 reps more than 6 in the last set equals a 10 lb. weight increase at the next workout.

The highest he has reached in this program is 470 pounds for 4 sets of 6. These workouts fall twice a week of every fourth day, as desired and as his work schedule with the railroad with the railroad with the railroad allows.

After 4 weeks Doug goes to a double program. One workout is the same 4 sets of 6, and the next workout is 5 sets of 3. This runs for 4 weeks or up to 4 weeks before the meet. At that time he does only 5 sets of 3 for 2 weeks. 2 weeks before the meet he goes to 5 sets of 2, timing it where he gets three workouts in but rests for five days before the meet.

In past programs he had done one limit set of reps at the end of his workout with anywhere from 50 to 100 lbs. under what he was working with his program. His normal peak on the 5 sets of 3 is 500 lbs. but he has reached 520 as of this writing.


In the squat and deadlift, Doug likes to use a 5-set program on a 5-4-3-2-1 sequence. This was an old York program used by Steve Stanko to become a National champ before Doug was born, and it indicates that solid, basic programs remain solid years later.

There is one variable. Doug uses the first set as weight increase indicator. So, while in theory it is 5-4-3-2-1, it is actually limit-4-3-2-1. He uses each rep over 5 in the first set as a 10-lb. indicator. He usually starts this cycle at 550 and jumps 25 pounds per set.
Example – 550 x 8, 575 x 4, 600 x 3, 625 x 2, 650 x 1.
Three reps over 5 at 10 lbs. per rep equals a 30 lb. increase next workout.
Example (next workout) – 580 x 6, 605 x 4, 630 x 3, 655 x 2, 680 x 1.

This is hypothetical but it’s the way he would do it. It would probably run more on the order of 10-lb. improvements or he’d obviously peak well ahead of the contest. Doug uses his peak set of 5 as a contest indicator. He usually goes 100 lbs. over his peak set of 5 in the cycle for his second attempt. If he was up to 620 x 5 in the cycle, his second attempt would be 720 at the meet, with a third attempt based on conditions at the meet. For some meets, however, he does a limit double seven days ahead (his last squat workout) and uses that as his indicator rather than the set of five. He usually adds 25 lbs. to that double. so a 700 x 2 would indicate a second attempt at the contest with 725.


The deadlift is roughly the same but he stops this 10 days ahead of the contest. There is another variable in the deadlift. Sometimes the duration of the contest makes it hard for Doug to beat his training best and sometimes he goes all-out for a big one to get a certain total. If he is well ahead he gets one total he wants on the second attempt, then shoots the works on the last attempt for another total he has in mind.


When he is gaining weight, Doug says he eats “all I can get my hands on” and whatever he desires with no special emphasis on how many grams of protein, just a lot of basic food. He admits to eating “french fries and cheeseburgers” when he wants them. He feels bodybuilders and some lifters may need to make a science of their diet but he eats what he enjoys most of the time. Doug usually weighs 10 to 20 lbs. over the 242 limit, but about three to four weeks ahead of a meet he goes to a cottage cheese, tuna fish, yogurt and liquid protein diet. He loses about 10 lbs. and the last week before a contest he loses the other 10, usually about 8 lbs. liquid loss or drying out.


One final word about that 12-week cycle. Terry Todd used to do it in 6-week cycles but in either case the point is the same. The cycle starts below what the lifter can do, but it is still hard work. Rather than going for his best at that time the lifter is building a strong base for a future record attempt, leaving incentive with room to improve each week and building a positive, no failure momentum that pushes him past his previous best by the end of the cycle. It’s nothing new. Todd did it before Young and other lifters before Todd. For lifters who have a hard time maintaining a strong incentive over a long period of time it might be a good idea to figure out a cycle system based on their own needs.
Yeah I saw where you posted that on P&B. I like it.
Really like this idea. Not uncommon to get a calculated max 60kg higher than working weight on the traditional 531 method. Even if you re-adjusted every cycle, it must eb better than adding an arbitrary weight.

Might look at using an adjusted max each week the next time I run 531.

Any thoughts on possibly using a re-calculated max as opposed to adding 'x' kg per rep?
I just started 5/3/1 due to recovery issues (new baby in the house). I was still making gains on a linear progression, so my mileage may vary. That being said, I like the idea of auto-regging the program. I was concerned about not making enough progress with the original template so this should take care of that. I keep my log here if anyone's interested in following it. I'll keep better notes for those that are interested.

I'll probably make a 5lb jump (to my training max) for every 3 reps over 5's, 2 reps over 3's, and 1 rep over 1's. I don't think I'll take the first deload but will reevaluate on my second cycle. Obviously, I won't follow Wendler's suggestion of adding a fixed amount of weight between cycles in addition to the jumps I make by auto-regulation.
For me, auto-regulating the weight basing myself on the number of reps done in a certain set never worked. Maybe it's because I suck badly at reps, who knows. And it's not like I've never done high reps : for the first years of my training "career", I never went under 8's.
A single set can go to hell or feel great based on lots of factors aside from actual strength or improvement. I believe the Idea of the training max is to back off into optimal poundage's with lots of room for progress, hence the 5 cycle forward, 2-3 cycle back mesocycle. This type of weight adjustment will speed up progression for sure, and with that whatever merits/ pit falls that contains. To some it will be usefull, to others not.

It does satisfy the desire to make it more complicated and has very pleasing mathematical symmetry. NiceYes!
So I've had some time to think about this after completing my first cycle, not taking a deload, and working through my first week of the second cycle. I posted this in my log here. Please note that I'm coming from the standpoint of not having previously done much assistance work.

(10-16-2010 03:33 AM)jameson Wrote: [ -> ]Just a few thoughts here.

First, autoregging 5/3/1 makes the program even more awesome. It allows the trainee to “true up” the percentages, and allows for good/bad days. The problem is picking your battles.

Second, you have to pick your battles wisely as you may not have enough gas towards 3′s and 1′s if you go all out on 5′s. That being said, it’s a wise decision to go all out on the first cycle.

Third, going all out on the first cycle really allows my first point to occur. It gives you a better starting point and is a good assessment of where you are with your training.

Fourth, the high-rep assistance work can be humbling if you’ve been doing low reps for very long. Don’t worry, the pain subsides and the weights go up (at least for the assistance lifts).

Fifth, it’s my guess that as these previously neglected lifts go up they’ll start pushing progress on the core lifts. The first few cycles are really just practice. Once the assistance stuff gets challenging, I’m betting that’s when the core lifts will see a benefit.

I’m only on my second cycle so we’ll see how all this pans out.
Interesting.

I noticed the same thing about higher rep work when doing 531. Pushing pretty grindy sets of 8-12 reps was damn hard after sticking mostly to 1-3s.
Not that I was providing anything truly insightful. Much of what I've noticed could easily be gleaned, and was by Shaf, without having done the program. I just put it into practice.

I guess if I truly added anything it's that going balls out on the first cycle and choosing wisely from there on out has some merit.
(10-16-2010 05:36 AM)ThePman Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting.

I noticed the same thing about higher rep work when doing 531. Pushing pretty grindy sets of 8-12 reps was damn hard after sticking mostly to 1-3s.

I'm having the same experience. The high-rep stuff has been humbling. The DOMS were worse than I'd expected, and at the height of them earlier in the week, I actually felt like I might be coming down with something. But my energy level's back up, and the inflammation is down. That sort of jives with what you'd hypothesized on your blog about fatigue coming about due to a rise in inflammation signaling the CNS to throttle back. Hrmmmm...
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